@mmalc@mastodon.social @HamonWry@mastodon.world @Strandjunker@mstdn.social
It's rather weird still encountering people, as I have recently, who think "teaching Democrats a lesson" is more important than {gestures broadly}
It's also extremely entitled
That the bad effects of the Trump administration won't affect them
(Or, rather than entitlement, extremely fucking stupid to think it won't effect them.)
@benroyce@mastodon.social
Indeed
Also, if they mean the "Democratic Party" by "the democrats", then I think the "lesson" was very different to what these people assume. They think what they "taught" the party was that the party should go more to the left.
The lesson they actually taught the party was that the people on the left are untrustworthy and it is better to appeal to centrists who are greater in number and turn out more.
@mmalc@mastodon.social @HamonWry@mastodon.world @Strandjunker@mstdn.social
@screwturn@mastodon.social @benroyce@mastodon.social I suppose someone could choose to view me as a "teach the democrats a lesson" person. What is unfortunate is jumping to a conclusion that makes us feel good about our own position, versus actually engaging with people we don't understand.
This is a moment in history where we should be self-reflecting first, rather than blaming other people for our own political failures. Do we really expect that repeating the same thing over and over again will yield different results?
@screwturn@mastodon.social @mmalc@mastodon.social @HamonWry@mastodon.world @Strandjunker@mstdn.social
they think not voting is a power
no
what happens is if someone doesn't vote, they, and everything they believe, are ignored
participation, showing up in the primaries and booting centrist democrats, is the only way forward
turning inward and sniffing your own farts about how righteous you are is a psychological exercise, not a political exercise
it's selfish, self-referential ego masturbation for the individual alone
and changes nothing in reality
@benroyce@mastodon.social THIS @screwturn@mastodon.social @mmalc@mastodon.social @HamonWry@mastodon.world @Strandjunker@mstdn.social
@benroyce@mastodon.social THIS @screwturn@mastodon.social @mmalc@mastodon.social @HamonWry@mastodon.world @Strandjunker@mstdn.social
@carl@chaos.social @benroyce@mastodon.social @screwturn@mastodon.social @mmalc@mastodon.social @HamonWry@mastodon.world @Strandjunker@mstdn.social
Hey Ben, and others -
For what it's worth, I voted for Harris in the last election, but this is an extremely uncharitable and unfair read of what non-voters might be up to. I wrote on the game theoretic rationality of withholding your vote here: https://philpapers.org/rec/LOOADO-5
@carl@chaos.social @benroyce@mastodon.social @screwturn@mastodon.social @mmalc@mastodon.social @HamonWry@mastodon.world @Strandjunker@mstdn.social
Hey Ben, and others -
For what it's worth, I voted for Harris in the last election, but this is an extremely uncharitable and unfair read of what non-voters might be up to. I wrote on the game theoretic rationality of withholding your vote here: https://philpapers.org/rec/LOOADO-5
@pjw@social.coop @carl@chaos.social @benroyce@mastodon.social @screwturn@mastodon.social @mmalc@mastodon.social @HamonWry@mastodon.world @Strandjunker@mstdn.social the opinion you reference is about people who did vote. There's a whole separate argument to be made about the sense and nonsense of voting for minor parties, but it is fundamentally different to non-voting.
It might be an oversight, but if you then whine about ppl not reading it, you at least give the impression of posting in bad faith.
@pjw@social.coop
You created a game theory scenario in which abstaining from the game teaches the other players to accommodate you more?
Well, that would be fascinating except for THE FUCKING FACT THAT EVERTHING AROUND US IS NOW ON FIRE AND A THOUSAND TIMES WORSE THAN BEFORE, MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF PEOPLE ARE DYING, AND A MASKED GESTAPO ARE SNATICHING PEOPLE OFF THE STREETS AND PUTTING THEM IN CONCENTRATION CAMPS AND WE ARE TEETERING ON A BALKANIZATION EVENT
@carl@chaos.social @benroyce@mastodon.social @mmalc@mastodon.social @HamonWry@mastodon.world @Strandjunker@mstdn.social
balkanization eventβsplitting the country
@screwturn@mastodon.social @carl@chaos.social @benroyce@mastodon.social @mmalc@mastodon.social @HamonWry@mastodon.world @Strandjunker@mstdn.social
As I said, I voted for Harris in 2024.
I'm merely pointing out that the details matter. A blanket "refusing to vote is universally stupid" is a bad take, invented by liberals to project their inability to enfranchise people onto the very people they've failed to enfranchise.
I'm always very happy to talk about the details, and I tend to agree with you about this past year. But I don't begrudge Palestinian Americans who couldn't do it
@pjw@social.coop @screwturn@mastodon.social @carl@chaos.social @benroyce@mastodon.social
I'm sorry, but I believe in consequences and responsibility. If I, living 14.000 km away, could see plain as day that the consequences for Palestinians would be thousands of times worse if Trump won, they could too. The ethics of not voting are all fine, but they also get to live with the scorn and ill feeling of everyone their collective action affected.
Liberals can be ineffective and disenfranchising, and people can be utter fucking dumbasses, too.
@pjw@social.coop
No, friend.
Refusing to vote is ALWAYS stupid.
There is no entity that you can "teach" via costly punishment like they are an individual player.
"The Democrats" is not an individual with a memory, it is a loose collection of changing participants and the individual players will focus on their constituency and the groups with highest turnout rates and numbers.
We are in this current cataclysm because people on the left ceded their vote
@carl@chaos.social @benroyce@mastodon.social @mmalc@mastodon.social @HamonWry@mastodon.world @Strandjunker@mstdn.social
@pjw@social.coop @screwturn@mastodon.social @carl@chaos.social @mmalc@mastodon.social @HamonWry@mastodon.world @Strandjunker@mstdn.social
so just to be clear:
you're going to deny your own voice and your claim to power, until centrists magically turn into leftists?
π€£
delulu
@screwturn@mastodon.social @pjw@social.coop @carl@chaos.social @benroyce@mastodon.social @mmalc@mastodon.social @HamonWry@mastodon.world @Strandjunker@mstdn.social The way to reform the Ds is the same way Trump reformed the Rs in the opposite direction.
Attack the entire institution, discredit everyone, and promise ground up reform. Except in this case you are promising to do something about monopolies, health care, etc. and take on the various Left-populist causes.
The Ds are wide open for a mirror image of the attack Trump used on the Rs.
@screwturn@mastodon.social @pjw@social.coop @carl@chaos.social @benroyce@mastodon.social @mmalc@mastodon.social @HamonWry@mastodon.world @Strandjunker@mstdn.social
I echo your point and add the following...
Power WILL be allocated as the result of an election. It is imperative you vote for the least bad option - to avoid the worse option(s).
That is always the case. Voting in a democracy is ALWAYS good - therefore, not voting is always dumb.
The time to fight for better policies/candidates is between elections. That is when you can influence a party.
@mike805@noc.social @screwturn@mastodon.social @pjw@social.coop @carl@chaos.social @benroyce@mastodon.social @mmalc@mastodon.social @HamonWry@mastodon.world @Strandjunker@mstdn.social
Except, using Trump's tactics means setting up one person whose whims we trust and imbue them with total authority. So. No. It has to be different than what he did.
@adriano@lile.cl @pjw@social.coop @screwturn@mastodon.social @carl@chaos.social @benroyce@mastodon.social
People like you are going to lead to a dem loss in 2028 if you don't learn the lesson, and it's a very, very simple one: You CANNOT have a pro-genocide party and get left-wing voters to come out and vote for you.
You have an opportunity because there will be a primary, and you can either join the chorus against AIPAC pro-genocide dems and kill their chances to win the primary, or you can pretend they already won and try to the same old failed threats.
@benroyce@mastodon.social @pjw@social.coop @screwturn@mastodon.social @carl@chaos.social @mmalc@mastodon.social @HamonWry@mastodon.world @Strandjunker@mstdn.social
Arguing over why and how voting is good and not being able to vote is bad seems cause for some hope, and perhaps key to formulating plans (better than hope alone).
@TCatInReality@mastodon.social @screwturn@mastodon.social @pjw@social.coop @carl@chaos.social @benroyce@mastodon.social @mmalc@mastodon.social @HamonWry@mastodon.world @Strandjunker@mstdn.social You vote in the same way you take public transport ( sorry #America you wonβt get this ). You donβt wait for a bus to your house. You get the bus/train that goes closest to your house. NOT VOTING IS STUPID!
@contrasocial@mastodon.social
who is this "you" that you expect to learn this lesson?
The "party" isn't a being, a creature, ... it doesn't learn.
Individual Left-wing voters need to wise the fuck up and vote harm-reduction, not self-importance.
As for now being no worse than Biden, gtfo
Look at the harm
@adriano@lile.cl @pjw@social.coop @carl@chaos.social @benroyce@mastodon.social
@MrInappropriate@mastodonapp.uk @TCatInReality@mastodon.social @screwturn@mastodon.social @pjw@social.coop @carl@chaos.social @benroyce@mastodon.social @mmalc@mastodon.social @HamonWry@mastodon.world @Strandjunker@mstdn.social Voting is a civic duty, not a privilege. Everyone (who is able to and allowed to) fails in their responsibilities if they choose not to turn up and make their voice heard.
@contrasocial@mastodon.social
who is this "you" that you expect to learn this lesson?
The "party" isn't a being, a creature, ... it doesn't learn.
Individual Left-wing voters need to wise the fuck up and vote harm-reduction, not self-importance.
As for now being no worse than Biden, gtfo
Look at the harm
@adriano@lile.cl @pjw@social.coop @carl@chaos.social @benroyce@mastodon.social
@MrInappropriate@mastodonapp.uk @TCatInReality@mastodon.social @screwturn@mastodon.social @pjw@social.coop @carl@chaos.social @benroyce@mastodon.social @mmalc@mastodon.social @HamonWry@mastodon.world @Strandjunker@mstdn.social Voting is a civic duty, not a privilege. Everyone (who is able to and allowed to) fails in their responsibilities if they choose not to turn up and make their voice heard.
Ben Royce πΊπ¦
πΈπ©
Humphrey Archer
